Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
I really thought about this last year, took the class and everything. In the end I decided not to get one. My reasoning is this: Having a gun and not a lot of experience in what to do with it is like playing a board game for life-and-death stakes that you have never played before.
Maybe I will regret at some point in the future, but I had trouble coming up with scenarios where I wound up thinking “Thank God I pulled my gun out, now all my problems are resolved.”
That’s because pulling a gun out for most things just escalates the situation.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
So what happens to my family in that situation? They get shipped off to a camp and tortured because of my decision?
Rather have ICE kill me in the comfort of my own home instead of going to a death camp I can’t find on the map.
I mean, after a certain point, yes. Solzhenitsyn talked about it, also I think some of the founding fathers had things to say about it. In our current situation, absolutely the fuck not. For one thing, it’ll get you killed obviously, for another thing, it’ll give them the pretext they’re looking for to start with all kinds of shit to all kinds of people that they can’t get away with right now. They are praying for something like this to happen. That’s why they play up anything which looks vaguely like it into something it isn’t.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power. I know it sounds like I’m just backing down from fighting back… all I am trying to say is that starting gunfights with the secret police is about like starting a fistfight with your abusive spouse: You’re not wrong. But also, you’re not going to win through that method.
Here is some extensive information about what does work after quite a lot of research: https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
Two frogs sit in a pot of water, one turns to the other and says “were on a fire, we should leave before the water boils”
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
It might be the more practical choice to keep backing away and keeping yourself and the people you care about out of the spotlight as long as possible, it’s certainly the safer choice and one that probably leads to a longer life…
You are certainly more optimistic about the future of the country than I am. I train because honestly I find it a little fun, competing with my own best times on various drills and courses. I also in recent years have come to train even harder and begun introducing LGBT friends to firearms, because I believe the country is headed toward civil war.
I’m not inviting my LGBT work friends to my range because I want them to attack ICE. I invite them and encourage them to buy their own firearm and train for self defense because I have literally heard other coworkers say, out loud to be met with nods and agreements, “any day now they’ll let us loose and I can go killin all them fs and tr***s (slurs for LGBT people)” and no end of bullshit about how “mentally ill” and “unstable” they supposedly are.
Besides, if my choices are “concentration camp v0.95” and “best case scenario being on the run after a shootout with the gestappo” then I know which choice I’m making.
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do. That probably a good thing, I’m a depressed pessimist with tons of anxiety about the state of the world. If more people were like me we would be like 10 years into a Civil War already or worse.
‡(frogs don’t actually sit in blowly heating water as certain movies like to say, they still will leave at some point when it gets uncomfortable)
You gotta read what I wrote again then lol
Absolutely not. Actually one of the really alarming things to me is that I don’t think this country has the structures and traditions in its society anymore that would enable it to build and maintain a working technological society (let alone a working democracy). I hope I am wrong, but I actually don’t even think that the current fascism crisis is the worst thing that we’re facing. I think it is a symptom of a much deeper disease which is a lot harder to get rid of than any one leader or political faction no matter how fascistic.
if ice is raiding my house, I am already dead. the only thing I get to decide in that scenario is how long it takes and who I take with me.
as for giving them the pretext, they will create whatever pretext they feel they need. they are already trying. remember the loser who shot migrants at the (Dallas?) ice office a few back? the only thing the government (and most media) would say about it was that he was shooting at ice officers when it was clear he was targeting immigrants.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext. if they do not fit the pretext they want in the timeline they want, they will do it themselves.
Very very true. However, most of the country does. If they were already “doing it themselves” and this stuff didn’t matter, they would have arrested Pritzger, kicked Jimmy Kimmel off the air, that CBP commander in Chicago wouldn’t be showing up to court every morning, things like that. There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if the citizens of Chicago had been obeying your advice here so far, Pritzger would have been arrested by some sort of federal agents already.
All I can really say is read the book. I know you have your way of looking at it and I’m honestly not trying to disrespect it, because I get it, but also, how many successful revolutions have you written the guidebook for? I think for Sharp that number is close to double digits now.
does most of the country care about legality and pretext? if they did we wouldn’t have the president or supreme court we do.
I’m familiar with sharps writings. he makes really good points but I think you are vastly underestimating the complexity of a revolution in a country such as united states. yes, his texts have been instrumental in may revolutions but as far as I am aware they have never been tested on such a world stage, and certainly not with the myriad of technological factors at play in the US, which changes things drastically as far as what is feasible.
I subscribe to a far more franz fanon approach, which is that nonviolence relies on your oppressors sense of humanity. if they are opressing you, their sense of humanity is so drastically different than ours that it is frivolous to try to appeal to it.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
That said, “There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.”
Where do you think this is leading to, and the point theyre trying to take it always leads to armed resistance. Buy a gun and be safe. It’s really not even almost a chore to have a gun tucked away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dictatorship_to_Democracy
It’s known to have been directly involved in Burma, the Arab Spring, Serbia, and Angola. It’s been translated by local activists into Amharic, Arabic, Azeri, Bahasa, Belarusian, Burmese, Chin, Chinese (simplified and traditional Mandarin), Dhivehi, Farsi, French, Georgian, German, Jing Paw, Karen, Khmer, Kurdish, Kyrgyz, Nepali, Pashto, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Tibetan, Tigrinya, Ukrainian, Uzbek, and Vietnamese. I have no idea how many of those led to it later being involved in a revolutionary attempt (let alone a successful one) in a “proof” sense. I was just telling you what I think about it.
Here’s a story: https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/gene-sharp-revolutionary/index.html
The author is the real deal. He’s spent time in federal detention in the US, he’s spent a lot of time with people in resistance movements in these places.
I want to call your attention to this part specifically:
I don’t know if you can really call modern Myanmar a “success story” but to me they seem like they’re making more progress now than in 30 years of bloody armed confrontation with the military, which of course is more capable at military things.
Dang. Buying the book next time I can afford it. Thanks for sharing
Yeah, it is excellent. He put it in the public domain, it’s on the internet:
https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
He wrote a bunch more that are a little more in depth (there are references in the appendix for some specific details about particular tactics), but that one is the pamphlet condensed version which is still pretty comprehensive.
Excited to get into this, thanks for elaborating
I hope your gun is securely “tucked away”. I have a kid and adding a gun to my household would make it statistically less safe.
I think it’s important to know how to safely handle guns, but in my life it’s completely unnecessary to own and maintain one. I know where I could steal a few if society collapsed, which I don’t think is likely anytime soon.
Kids aren’t in my home
Fascist don’t care what is or isn’t illegal. You sound just like the average German citizen in the 1930’s. Tell more about all the power they are losing while continuing to do the bad things.
Read the book. It’s based on a lot of research and it’s been actively used in practice in defeating a whole lot of governments a hell of a lot more repressive than Trump’s.
Emphasis is mine, that’s the answer to your question. He actually says later on that there are circumstances where violence is needed, I couldn’t quickly find that quote, but he basically just lays out the history of where and how different types of resistance action have worked.
I realize it’s not convincing when I just quote it out like that. Read the book. There are strong reasons and historical examples for everything he’s saying in those quick summaries.
Gene Sharp has a lot of great points. I also recommend his book The Politics of Nonviolent Action which has a lot more detail.
However, in the end I asked myself what would Picard (of Star Trek) do and I realized he would be armed and capable and use violent resistance as a last resort.
So I bought a Mossberg 500 and am training with it once a week. I even feild strip it and put it back together. I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out. I’m also leaning a bunch about radio.
Another book I recommend is Full Spectrum Resistance which has examples of why it helps to have both nonviolent and violent resistance.
So if you don’t feel right with a gun, I think that’s ok. As long as we are doing something productive while we can. And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the unthinkable does happen.
Honestly everyone should take some kind of self-defense classes. I know something about it but I am horribly out of shape right now, which probably isn’t a good idea.
This is very sincerely a really good point. I might do some first aid classes and things, it does indeed seem like shit will get quite a lot wilder before it ever gets unwild again.
For almost my entire life, I never thought I’d own a gun. Now I do. You definitely need to practice with it at a range of your choosing, and keep practicing. I didn’t start carrying until after I’d been to the range a dozen times. I still don’t carry every time I go out. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert, but I’m happy to talk about what I do know if ever you’re interested.
Something I’ve noticed: carrying makes me extremely polite. Because if I have to draw, I need to already have been doing everything right, or I’m going to prison. Even if I’m totally in the right, don’t even get charged with anything, the aftermath of such a situation would be life-changing, in a very bad way. There is no good outcome to an imminent threat to life or limb; being armed gives me the chance of choosing the least bad one.
I saved this comment from u/jlbraun about 13 years ago (would link to the source comment but fuck that site):
As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, moreso than the police ever have to be.
You do not start shit, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk shit, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.
A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me: "From now on, if no one’s life is on the line, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the fuck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk shit about your ladyfriend. You will let them call your mother a bitch and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego. "
“You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you’re going to pull it and kill him. And even if you don’t go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you’re going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone’s life and yet you let your ego kill someone.”
“You are not the police, so don’t act like them. Though all of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, or a union plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up.”
ed: He also said: “but after backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardiothoracic] vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision to kill himself.”
This is the only part I strongly disagree with
I actually have seen someone ask a lawyer about this. The answer the lawyer gave was:
I modified step 2 slightly, this was from back before there were cameras everywhere so you probably need to be more mindful of that. Don’t do anything that makes you look guilty, definitely nothing that makes you look dishonest. But for fuck’s sake don’t just “give a statement” if you just killed somebody.
I was just sharing that comment to demonstrate a proper mindset and wasn’t intending it to be an actual guide anyone should follow - but you’re definitely right. A good carry permit class will cover what is recommend to do and say if you’re ever involved in an incident.
Yeah. I mean you might be fine. If the cops show up, you explain what happened and you didn’t do anything wrong, and everything checks out, you might get to go home and the detective might call you the next day just to close out the loop and you’ll be fine. But… do you want to bet the rest of your life on it working out that way?
Again, be polite. As a matter of realpolitik it is extremely important that you not fit into the “hostile suspect who just killed somebody” bubble. But, also, while you’re being polite and getting access to your lawyer as quickly as possible so you can clear the air and give you reasonable statement to them, it’s still Shut the Fuck Up Friday. You have no idea what the cops and prosecutors may decide to read into what single sentence you happened to randomly blurt out while your blood is still pounding in your ears.
Plus what if they assailant turns out to be an off duty cop or someone else connected to the violence industry?
You likely have no idea who you just killed and who’s coming to investigate it. Shut the fuck up and let a lawyer talk.
I saw a bodycam video once where some cops were attempting to speak with a woman who had signs of mental illness who was alone in the house with a small child. One of her relatives was alarmed by this situation, called the cops, and a couple cops were now trying to retrieve the child from the house calmly, without success.
The sergeant showed up, said maybe it was a fake custody situation, said maybe someone was in the country illegally, yelled at the woman who had called the police, and had everyone leave.
Once the cops left, the woman he had yelled at tried to go in the house and resolve things herself, the mentally ill woman physically attacked her, and the cops came back and long story short it all got sorted out. The sergeant actually apologized to the woman for being an “asshole” in his words. Sure. But also, the situation could easily have ended with a dead kid or the woman who called the cops getting shot or something.
Bottom line: Yes. There are plenty of good cops out there, don’t listen to Lemmy about it. But there are also plenty who are incompetent or it’s just not a good day for them. Don’t just give a goddamned statement.
100%. Holster your firearm, say where it is, allow the police to disarm you. Point out witnesses. You’ll certainly need to identify yourself with name and date of birth. Say nothing else, especially when your adrenaline is up: talk to a lawyer.
I’ve done shooting at the range a few times. I know the physical mechanics, I’m talking about knowing what to do and how to react in a situation where people are killing each other or might start killing each other. Like a lot of things, it seems straightforward until you’re in it, and then all of a sudden it really doesn’t.
Like I feel like even if I did one of those “tactical situation” training weekends or something, I wouldn’t really like that gave me anything about what I actually need. What I need is how to make the right decisions. And, like I was saying in the other comments, I don’t feel like gunfire is even really any kind of solution to what I see now as the most urgent active physical threat to my safety. If it was a mob of Proud Boys? I mean, maybe. But on the other hand I probably don’t have a mob’s worth of bullets.
Again, maybe I’m wrong in all this, maybe I will regret. It’s hard to say. Maybe I will regret staying in the country at all. Let’s see.
I’ve bought some snap caps (dummy rounds) so that I can practice draw, rack, aim, trigger in the house. (They don’t let you draw at the range.)
Yeah, I don’t have an answer for that one. Most people probably don’t. My logic for getting a gun was “If you find yourself in a situation where you wish you had a gun, it’s too late.” I have no expectation that I’ll need a gun anytime very soon, although the wind can change direction in a hurry. But I do have an expectation that I’ll need a gun eventually, and if that’s true, I should have one now so that I can practice with it.
Yeah, I feel you on that. You’re not wrong.
It’s not like its going to help anyway. If you defend yourself from the crazies, ICE, whatever, you are just going to get shot anyway by someone else. They want that excuse. Being armed only really matters if a civil war breaks out. Its a crazy dynamic, which is why guns should be banned in the first place.
No, the reason you did not buy a gun was because they would not let you because you do not have a physical address because you were living in a Van parked on the side of the road while you avoid all responsibilities for your debts that you’ve definitely got into on your own.
Better luck next time
My van was down by the river though, it’s good because you can go swimming every morning like John Quincy Adams
That sounds lovely. It also sounds like not a permanent address to get a firearm.
While I wish you the best and I hope that you enjoy swimming in the river and I am admittedly slightly jealous, don’t blame the fact that you don’t have a firearm on “I didn’t want one “
You definitely want one. Who would not want one in this current world?
I don’t want one. It’s an unnecessary expense and statistically less safe to own one. I do think we should know how to safely handle one and use it an emergency, but if we have a civil war or societal collapse I have skills to trade for one and know where I can get one within 15 minutes if it’s a surprise.