I think this guy is an entertainment puffball who is not cut out to have sophisticated opinions on anything or any opinions about sophisticated matters, but he is fast becoming a textbook case on how that doesn’t matter because you can’t simply throw up your hands at genocide and say “I’m not a political person.”
I always try to give people the benefit of doubt. But now he’s said too much for that to apply.
The entirety of Palestine, Gaza, and Israel is complex. Though, it has to be said, part of that is because Israel has done everything in their power to keep it “complex”. When serious progress was being made in the early years of their nation. Their response was to assassinate the mediator. Yes. Really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte (Oh I mean… It was totally these extremists, a rebel group, and in no way was Israel involved, they investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing!)
The Israeli genocide in Gaza however. Is not very complex. It’s quite simple. It’s a genocide. And they need to be held accountable. Though I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Solving the conflict between a poor and powerless Palestine and the nuclear power of Israel IS one of the most complex political issues. Not only, but also because of the power-imbalance and generational hate on both sides.
The genocide in Gaza is decidedly NOT complex though. Yes it is a part of that entire thing, but the fact that the IDF is committing crimes against humanity is as simple as can be.
“genocide bad” is not complex at all, actually.
World War II was also the most geopolitically complex issue on the planet.
One side is far more powerful and commiting genocide, the other is poor and simply trying to survive. Currently it is not complex at all.
My initial position after those first attacks from Hamas were Isreal has the right to defend itself, but what has happened since then is so far beyond the scope of what is acceptable, it is horrible.
There’s a deeper level to it. Israel, especially netanyahu over his long career, created the entire situation. And they did it directly and intentionally
Palestine used to be governed by the PLA. Hamas are hardliners - their founding goal was to turn the region against Israel and drive out the Israeli people. Hardliners are the least effective form of any movement
Israel held elections for Palestinians, giving them an official group to negotiate with, as well as some legal recognition that allows them to collect funds
As soon as Hamas won a single election, they stopped holding elections and the PLA leaders were assassinated soon after
Not to mention the on again off again attacks… Israel would build them infrastructure like hospitals and desalinization plants, then blow them up
There’s a lot to say on the topic, so I’ll end it with a fact that really puts things in contrast…
Before October 11, the average age in Gaza was under 18, and it isn’t like their population numbers were booming
Lust for power and wanting to be godlike is pretty surface level. Nothing too deep there. Same-old, same-old throughout history.
Isreal has the right to defend itself
Israel has been on the offense for 80 years, read a damn history book. PRETENDING that this began on Oct.7 is intellectual dishonesty and evidence that you regurgitate talking points sans critical thought.
I didn’t start at Oct 7, but before it, the region was in relative peace for a few years.
still a completely pro Israel take.
how can there be peace when Israel kidnaps Palestinians off the streets with impunity?
Citation needed. What I mean by relative peace is the fact there was no war and no big signs of escalation from Israel.
No signs of escalation like, say, sniping children in the crowd of a peaceful protest at the walls of a ghetto?
hes not arguing in good faith. he asks for a citation of one of THE MOST WELL documented modern oppression:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Israeli_custody
like asking for a citation when someone claims the sky is blue or grass is green.
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ah yes, Hamas is embedded so thoroughly we have to shoot people waiting for food aid after we carpet bombed their house And dont get me started on journalists, the Associated Press should be designated an international sponsor of terrorism.
If you must try to hold on to this idea that Israel is acting in good faith when they
mow the lawn❌thin the population❌erase gaza❌ defend themselves ✅ fromhuman animals❌amalek❌ Hamas ✅ by bombing hospitals and schools you could at least admit that IDF fucks up a lot. Like a suspicious amount.We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now…
“We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now” is a remarkable thing to say while defending collective punishment, considering we already have a thorough and tragic historical record.
The last century gave us genocide, mass civilian killing, collective punishment, and entire populations being blamed for the actions of governments and armed groups.
The humanitarian laws written in response explicitly rejected the exact moral logic you are invoking here.
You are not offering some hardheaded lesson from history. You are resurrecting an argument the last century already taught us to reject.
Instead of predicting how history will remember this, maybe you should read some.
Instead of predicting how history will remember this,
I made no such prediction.
“I made no such prediction.”
That is semantics after the fact.
“We’ll see what is remembered 50 years from now” is plainly an appeal to future historical judgment. You used it to wave away criticism in the present.
You do not get to hide behind the fact that you left the prediction deliberately vague. The implication was the entire point of the sentence.
If you meant nothing by it, then it was meaningless. If you meant what any ordinary reader would understand it to mean, then yes, you were invoking how history would judge this.
You are resurrecting an argument the last century already taught us to reject.
Current events worldwide demonstrate that the lesson has neither been learned, nor rejected- most particularly in the Muslim world…
No. The fact that people still commit atrocities does not mean those atrocities were never rejected.
People still murder. People still torture. People still commit genocide. That does not make murder, torture, or genocide accepted principles.
Collective punishment was explicitly rejected in international humanitarian law after the horrors of the last century.
And “but the Muslim world” is not a defense of your argument. It is just pointing at someone else.
You defended collective punishment. You minimized the suffering of innocent civilians. You justified that suffering as the consequence of political decisions made by a population decades ago.
Those were your words. They are still sitting there for everyone to read.
You cannot erase what you argued by pretending you argued something else.
No. The fact that people still commit atrocities does not mean those atrocities were never rejected.
Well then let’s just say these principles are honored more in the breach, than in the observance in today’s world.
I bet some Nazi said that too.
Even Germans who weren’t Nazis and may not have even voted for Hitler.
All the other dogshit that others are well enough covering aside, just a nitpick: Hitler ran for president and lost in 1932. Hindenburg won. Hindenburg then appointed Hitler as Chancellor, signed over most powers to him, dissolved the Reichstag a couple times, and died.
Even if he ran and lost repeatedly in elections, people still voted for Hitler. That is a matter of historical record. In the middle of his career he was as mainstream a politician in his adopted country, as they came. Doing all the same work the rest of them did. Making speeches, strategizing, running the party… Selling out the working class to the moneyed elites of the time. .
You’re just straight up being a fascist. Like you deadass are justifying genocide. There already were tons of hospitals and infrastructure! Israel levelled all of them! And that’s despite the fact that Israel regularly restricted access to electricity and food BEFORE October 7. Also most of Gaza’s population wasn’t even old enough to vote when Hamas was elected. Also If you think collective punishment is acceptable for electing someone deemed bad enough then I guess you’d be fine if Israelis and Americans were being mass murdered?
Yeah Hamas won the election in 2006. The majority of people living in Gaza are under 20.
How many times can Israeli soldiers murder Palestinian children for the crime of “rock-throwing” before you decide enough is enough?
Just pick a number. Any number.
What culture sends it children into harm’s way to antagonize armed soldiers? Answer: Palestinians.
Not old enough to shave a beard but old enough to wear a suicide vest… again… Palestinians…
Israel rape Palestinians children
Israelis
Dude you should lose custody of your children for saying shit like this.
I hope you are one day oppressed by the same shit you support for others.
Dude you should lose custody of your children for saying shit like this.
I’m sorry? Him calling out how children are abused in wars (this isn’t exclusive to Hamas and has been documented around the world, especially African conflicts) means you should lose custody of children? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Hmm… that’s all ya got?
The fun thing is, I get to walk away and be me and you have to settle for being you.
How about we condemn both Hamas AND IDF for their crimes?
I know it’s a very novel approach but I think there might be a method in that madness.
OK so we can put you down for “It’s ok for soldiers to murder rock-throwing children”
Anyone else want to participate?
Turns out, this guy was wrong! It’s not just Twitter, it’s also Lemmy…
Some of us do. The problem is that only Israel has the capacity to and is committing genocide.
Wrong. Israel is the only one with the capacity to do it successfully.
(and let’s ignore here for a moment the fact that “Palestinian Genocide” has been on the tongues of people for at least 30 years, and during that time the population of Gaza has nearly doubled, that’s besides the point right now)
Hamas is absolutely attempting to commit genocide, and if given the tools, they wouldn’t bat an eyelid before pulling the trigger. It just so happens that the best they can do is murder some kids on a concert or fling rockets at crop fields and cities.
So in other words, only Israel has the capacity to and is committing genocide and Hamas doesn’t.
Why don’t you just admit you want to whatabout into justifying genocide? It would be more honest with yourself. A group who fantasizes about committing genocide is very different from a group capable of and actively committing it.
Why don’t you just admit you want to whatabout into justifying genocide?
Yeah, it might look like that if you’re stupid or also a fundamentalist.
My position is that both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to live there and since they can’t figure it out on their own, the UN should have the capacity to step in, provide a buffer, and kick out the settler criminals, ideally hang Netanyahu and whoever is in charge of Hamas, and then ensure both sides sit separated for as long as it takes for Palestine to normalise as a country.
You, I take it, are of the opinion that since Israel is the stronger of the two, Hamas has the right to murder them indiscriminately in their “fight for freedom”?
Oh please. Acting like Israel hasn’t been killing Palestinians for decades. Imagine how Palestine could look now if Israel hadn’t been subjugating and oppressing them for the last 60+ years.
Both sides have been killing each other for decades. Palestinians killing Israelis, Israelis killing Palestinians. Neither side has clean hands in any of this.
Nat turner committed atrocities? Is Nat turner as bad as the slave owners?
Yes, Israeli soldiers murder children, and then get attacked, and then go murder more children.
Never do the pussies bother to fight anyone in a uniform or anyone armed.
It’s always, “Oops, I had to blow up a children’s hospital again.” Fucking despicable.
Palestine has a right to defend itself
Yea in a ratio of about 10 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Neither side has clean hands. But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other. This both sides shit you’re spewing is disgusting. Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.
But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other.
Both sides are, but one side has been doing a better job of it for the last 80 years than the other side.
I don’t agree it is a genocide, but I do think either side would be quite glad to see every belligerent member of the other side dead.
There are pro-Palestinian Jews in Israel just as there are Pro-Israeli Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, though they are few.
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In your opinion it would’ve been OK for Israel to retaliate if the ratio was closer to 1:1?
Neither side has clean hands
100% true.
But one side sure is hell bent on completely genociding the other
You mean the side that had the “obliteration” of the other side mentioned multiple times in its charter?
Recognize that a genocide is taking place and is killing tens of thousands of innocents.
Agreed. The UN should’ve stepped in a long time ago and provided much needed security.
Israel won’t let the UN step in. UN buildings, programs, and investigators were some of the first targeted, and the US has veto power within the UN. One side has the capacity and is committing genocide, and when you bother to look at what they are saying in Israeli social networks, they are not shy about it. Israel also killed the alternatives for Hamas, bolstering it over the PA to prevent the possibility of a legitimate Palestinian state from rising.
Israel won’t let the UN step in. UN buildings, programs, and investigators were some of the first targeted, and the US has veto power within the UN.
I know, it was wishful thinking.
when you bother to look at what they are saying in Israeli social networks, they are not shy about it
Checking social networks is pointless. Hell, check German socials and you’d think that AfD has 99% votes already. Check US networks and it’s a literal civil war. Check Polish socials and half the country is already surrendered to russia.
Too much disinformation for socials to be any source of information.
It’s better to look at what was going on just before the attack - and that is: Netanyahu having around 30% support and multiple lawsuits being prepared against him, with people protesting on the streets.
Israel also killed the alternatives for Hamas
When was that? I know that Hamas won general elections in 2006 and no other elections have happened in Gaza ever since and, from what you’re saying, it seems that I missed another conflict that happened between then and now, where Fatah was eliminated.
Islamic fundamentalists are also not shy about it. You should listen to what they say, too.
Palestine is a tiny part of a very large middle east majority called Islam, they don’t concern themselves with such things as “states” and “borders”. According to them.
We agree, only the UN could enforce a “two-state solution”.
Left to their own devices, Palestinian or Israeli, (HAMAS vs. Zionist, Islam vs. Jew), genocide is their end goal per their own words. Not everybody. But the fundamentalists don’t respect the opinion of “anybody” or the rule of law, and they don’t negotiate in good faith, ever.
They both want dominion from the river to the sea. Neither will submit to the rule of the other. It’s time for us to give up that fantasy.
A lot of international troops would be required to “keep the peace”, and even then, murders will continue, just at a slower pace.
If the UN (not the USA) won’t keep the peace, we need to get Palestinian civilians out of there. This is an international war, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, the Islamic Republic, HAMAS, Hezbollah, et al. aren’t going to negotiate peace, there are no terms the other would accept.
I have a firm belief that any form of fundamentalism should be treated like a mental illness. So many things would improve in the world…
You will be “disciplined” for this point of view on Lemmy. Many here don’t even realize that all fundamentalist parties involved are dedicated to the total obliteration of the other. They don’t understand that this is international, not Israeli vs. Palestinian, but more Jews vs. Islam (which is in itself a gross simplification).
Others want all of these millions of Israelis to “disappear”, as if they have somewhere to go. Others want… more.
They don’t understand that this is international, not Israeli vs. Palestinian, but more Jews vs. Islam (which is in itself a gross simplification).
It didn’t end with WW2 and the fall of the Nazis…
Many here don’t even realize that all fundamentalist parties involved are dedicated to the total obliteration of the other.
Yes, most of the time, I can’t tell if they are ignorant or just stupid.
Perhaps both, at the same time.
You will be “disciplined” for this point of view on Lemmy.
I know. I don’t care. So far it’s all been a bunch of angry foaming-at-the-mouth emotionalism and name calling in the replies. I have my own views. Others have theirs.
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This is wrong on many levels. Comparing a nation that went to war and the unfortunate reality of civilians getting caught in the crosshairs to civilians being massacred over a terrorist act is nonsensical.
Comparing a nation that went to war
Both situations look the same to me. YMMV. .
Blaming civilians not involved in a war for a terrorist act is not the same. Furthermore, Netanyahu funded the said terrorist group. Perhaps you should get your vision checked?
I don’t blame civilians, I merely observe that they will also partake of collective punishments brought on by the bad decisions of their political leaders. It is always so, in war. And they elected those leaders, let us not forget…
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Israeli voted for genocidal leaders. Aren’t you justifying october7 attrocities with your logic?
I don’t agree that Israe’s leaders are genocidal, so that makes the remainder of what you said completely moot in my mind.
I appreciate you do not blame the civilians.
I will repeat it was never a war.
Collective punishment isn’t a thing in modern warfare and is definitely a crime against humanity.
This is an example of a corrupt politician getting a shit ton of civilians killed to stay out of prison. Not something you get to respond with an ongoing civilian massacre to.
Actually they do blame the civilians.
I appreciate you do not blame the civilians.
I don’t think that ordinary right-thinking individuals would want this situation in its current form.
Unfortunately those are rarely the ones who are making the large scale decisions.
Particularly in recent times.
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You are poison
I know from their standpoint the Jews were “chosen” for certain things that’s recognised by almost all christian religions due to the suffering in egypt. The thing that should really alarm people about israel though is that they wouldn’t let the gazans leave the area to seek asylum elsewhere and even international citizens in the strip got caught up in this as well. I agree that it’s an extremely complex situation due to the history going back Millenia, not 80+ years.
I try not to invoke the religious angle. The subject is complicated enough without mixing theology into it. Others are free to do as they wish, but it seems like the waters are muddied enough by themselves with just people’s flaming emotions, illogic, and ignorant opinions of non-religious things and events. There never was nor has been a Palestinian state, and the inhabitants of Palestine didn’t exactly thrive under the Ottoman Turks, either. Looking through history, both recent and distant, I can’t seem to find this golden age of independence and self sufficient self rule that the Palestinians imagine existed.
While I agree with the theology standpoint, unfortunately that & history (regardless of recognition, if it was most western countries that occupied the space they would have declared it theirs a long time ago) has made it complicated in the minds of people that occupy both regions.
The palestinians are treated as less-than and while there is a few people over there that could do with a firing squad personally I don’t think the population should be responsible for the decisions of their leaders, Instead of just bombing endlessly on civilians israel could have instead allowed humanitarians in to not only allow people to seek asylum but to let the international civilians out.
Either way while I agree that there isn’t always an option for peace, we will never have peace as long as we keep causing the terrorism feedback loop that just creates more terrorists. It’s like when you send a kid into prison, he just learns to become a better criminal.
The only thing making it complex is that Jews were the victims of a genocide too. Nothing more to it than humans not learning from history.
So tired to hear about this dude it’s not even funny.
It’s not that complex Ed, just look at Elon Musk and Steve Bannon. They know how to express exactly what they mean.
Almost sounds like you have reservations about being a spineless pos.
Also : He tried playing the victim for a bit.
Person A: You don’t love me anymore?
Person B: It is complicated.
Person A: really!?
The most complex political issue on the planet remains how to handle climate change.
IMHO that’s not really so complicated, we just do the same things we did for lead and CFCs.
Lead and CFCs were much smaller problems by amount used and necessity for use. Convincing rich countries and primary historic polluters to pay not only for their own decarbonization and sequestration, but also for that of poor countries is a hard sell, especially since many are democracies and agreeing to that would be political suicide. Add in petrostates like Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the US.
And that’s before we get into the mass migration as more parts of the world become uninhabitable due to temperature and/or lack of water.
Phasing out CFCs was a hit to efficiency and a research problem, but it cost no jobs. Phasing out lead was also a research problem and it had some controversy. Phasing out fossil fuels is a major shift in the global economy
When you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
-Geddy Lee, Neil Peart, and Alex Lifeson
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor
-Desmond Tutu
You should change the attribution to Rush. Neil was the lyricist of the group.
when it’s genocide vs genocide the only winner is genocide
genocide
It’s not a matter of choice, either you have morals or you don’t. He doesn’t.
You have morals or you have money. It’s a binary thing really.
Does that make Keanu Reeves nonbinary?
An exception perhaps.
I’d say so, but even he is fallible - i remember him supporting some medical con-man (out of conviction, not out of greed) a few years back? Can’t remember details, but he caught online flak for it - deservedly
Yes! It’s so clear with issues like this one, too.
- There is a genocide
- Should you help in any way?
Those who answer “not sure” are absolutely the same as those who say “no”. History doesn’t remember future intentions, only actions that take place.
People who can’t even VOICE that genocide is wrong are fucking monsters.
Sounds pretty simple to me
My first thought when he said that.
Kids dying isn’t complex bro. Like isn’t he fuckin Irish?
Kids dying is the end product of an extremely complex political situation. What’s difficult for you to understand here?
Israel is murdering children daily, intentionally. Please explain how that is complex? Just follow your own fucking ceasefire and stop murdering children and let fucking aid in and stop murdering journalists. See how un-fucking-complicated it is?
Or is there a complex reason that should keep going?
Israel is murdering children daily, intentionally. Please explain how that is complex?
Reducing the whole problem to “Israel is murdering kids” is, ironically, childish. Do you think that adults are not suffering over there? Does kids dying diminish the deaths of adults? I don’t think it does.
Fixing that problem is not “just stop murdering children”.
Should Israel respect the ceasefire and let humanitarian aid in? Absolutely true, unequivocally. Does that have any bearing on the fact that fundamentalists of the region (on both sides) will still do everything in their power to cause chaos and death, and further divide between the people living in the region? Also absolutely true.
And that’s why this is a “complex political situation”. Because fundamentalists in Israel want to eliminate Palestinians, fundamentalists in Palestine want to eliminate Israel, russia and Iran are funding the latter to sow chaos and destabilise the region, Saudis and the West are supporting the former because Israel is the stronger power and overall more stable (if nothing else: it had a couple of elections since 2006), and there’s probably a billion other elements at play here.
Simplicity is childish. And yet you fucking agree with it.
It isn’t complex. The “complexity” is that Israel is a military ally, and we sell fucktons of weapons to them. The “complexity” is that Israel justifies their actions by pretending that the political situation is complex. The “complexity” is that Israel contributes lots of money to various politicians to let them do their genocide. The “complexity” is that Israel pretends to represent all Jewish people and uses them as a shield for their actions and then calls any criticism antisemitism.
The complex part is that the US doesn’t want to intervene, in spite of an internationally recognized duty to do so should a genocide be happening. That’s why people don’t want to call it a genocide. If you call it a genocide, you have to do what you can to stop it. But no, we can sweep the hundred thousand plus dead Palestinian children under the fucking rug.
The “complex” part is that it’s a genocide. Anyone that defends this shit (including you) is a fucking depraved loser.
Yeah, narrow down the 3000 years of history to what’s been happening in the last 30, that’s a grown-up thing to do. :)
I also would love to hear where in my posts did you see any defence of genocide, because right now it seems like you’re just imagining things and then getting angry at them.
