That would be a morally correct political faux pas, that would result in Republicans scoring easy points just by saying “See! We told you so!”
It’s the kind of suggestion someone in a leftwing political bubble would make, forgetting that to actually be effective, you have to win votes from both sides.
There’s no room for tactical errors this election, even if they would make you feel morally superior. It’s not a game of moral signaling, it’s a game of politics. The point is not to be right, it’s to win the election.
I don’t know what you mean by this. Progressives just need people to vote. The higher the voting turnout percentage, the better progressive candidates do. Conservative voters are the last people to stop voting due to disenfranchisement, they are practically immune to it. There are not a lot of swing voters.
Yes, and the vast majority of Americans have no interest in voting for what they consider niche culture issues. Defeating fascists will protect everyone’s rights.
You’re not saying that they are disinterested, that this is an ineffective way to spend energy or something. You’re saying that it will actively drive moderate Americans to hate trans people. I think you need to look into your heart.
So, to be clear, your claim is that I didn’t say what I literally said?
Here, maybe an analogy will help. Suppose I run for office to fight corporate monopolies. How do I get people to vote for me?
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money at the grocery store by preventing price gouging.”
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money on Pokémon cards by preventing price gouging.”
Even though Pokémon cards will be cheaper under a good antitrust policy, that’s not a fact that will motivate average Americans to vote. They don’t hate Pokémon, you understand. They just have their own problems, living paycheck to paycheck, etc.
No, they’re saying that it will actively drive some moderate Americans to not vote because they see the trans question as being a far left issue. If they have more votes to lose than to win by talking about trans rights (which trans actually know are better protected by Democrats) then why would they talk about it when their goal is to be elected?
This is a reasonable response. But generally “energizing the base” is done closer to the election. We’ll see more preaching to the choir discourse around then.
I honestly don’t give a shit how loud they are about it before the election, I just want to see them take action once Kamala is in office.
Right now I just want to see them win the election, because everything else I want is off-the-table otherwise. If being quiet on controversial issues right now helps, then they should do that.
Like how Biden has been taking action on it while he’s been in office…?
There’s zero evidence Harris will do anything she hasn’t voiced support for once she’s in office, and she has no actual motivation to do so once the election is over.
And the only time when Biden has seemed to briefly change tact on Israel was when his polling for the upcoming election was suffering. All this philosophy about “don’t make a stink now, it’s only going to get Trump elected” is bullshit, because it very much also might make Democrats decide trans-rights/Palestine actually matter. Quietly storing it away for after the election will do absolutely nothing.
All this philosophy about “don’t make a stink now, it’s only going to get Trump elected” is bullshit, because it very much also might make Democrats decide trans-rights/Palestine actually matter.
That’s the only reason centrists don’t want anyone making a fuss about it.
It’s the morally correct position. And running away from it will lose democrats votes they need.
They’re not gonna win republicans by going to the right. The democrats are going to lose if they try that shit. If they want to win they need to promise to bring back abortion rights, protect LGBTQ rights, and stop arming Israel. That would guarantee them a win. Especially if Kamala keeps up her economic promises she already made.
do you think winning an election is about the popular vote?
do you think the Democrats are more likely to support trans rights?
If you answered yes to both, then maybe don’t suggest importing wedge issues into something that’s about the popular vote?
Do you want to give Trump more voters? Because that’s what you’re angling for. That’s what the headline is suggesting to do.
You’re mistaking wanting the most minority supporting side of politics to win the election for not supporting minorities? How the fuck doesn’t that even make sense.
Kamala’s job is currently defensive, dodge dodge dodge, stay clean, watch Trump get dirty and sink. It’s simple.
As soon as she’s won, then it’s time to be very very very noisy (and violent) on progressive and socialist issues again. But right now that’s only going to act as a kind of sabotage.
Which is fine if you’re an accelerationist who sees value to strengthening American Fascism. But I just want to try to end the Republican party.
Have you spent any time in right wing spaces, or listened to the new generation describing themselves as “classical liberals”. They’re swing voters and it’s pretty important to them.
Yes, let’s just do everything we can to abandon every last minority centrists consider expendable in order to peel off a total of zero votes from fascists.
They’re not going to vote for you, no matter how many vulnerable minorities you throw under the bus. You’ve had fucking decades to figure this out, and it looks like you’re just throwing people under the bus because you like the thumping sounds.
All powerful me who you can attack rather than try to convince. A microcosm for your general approach of yelling. Your goals and demands, kept vague at best.
I doubt you even know what you’re asking for.
There’s a timeline to installing trans rights, it requires adjustments to the Supreme Court.
But I’m aware that you’re not thinking that far ahead in a planned or tactical manner, and your plans are: be loud, make demands, be radical.
But you’ve not actually outlined much more than that, so there’s nothing to debate with you.
Good day, good luck with your imaginary bus, and me as the all powerful deity controlling who gets pushed under.
No idea what you’re on about unfortunately, but you seem very vocal about whatever it is.
[Edit: No, I get it, you want to create a polemic against Trump’s obvious lies, treating them as if they’re worth addressing rather than let him melt under the scrutiny of the general population https://i.redd.it/m2pzcfjk77md1.png… But that’s not necessary. Let’s not make his lies into a false balance situation. Just let him look foolish instead.]
If your goal is to not let the Republicans win? Just look at what the Democrats at the various levels of government are actually doing even though they never make it a point to talk about it while they’re campaigning and understand that there’s a fucking good reason why they don’t.
Hell, you need to be pretty self centered to believe that trans people are the only repressed people that don’t get talked about but still benefit from having the Democrats in power vs the Republicans. They can’t cover every single group.
She didn’t get the popular vote where it mattered, popular vote is still what is needed
Trump won without it.
So you think it’s just as likely they won’t protect trans right as it is likely the Republicans won’t?
I don’t trust either of them at all on this issue. I think they’re just itching to throw another vulnerable minority under the bus like they did with the undocumented immigrants you’re using Republican talking points about.
This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
When you live in a 2 party system with FPtP voting, this is the unfortunate reality. The person that has the most support has the most power to intact change. Sometimes that means you have to crawl through shit to get there.
I’ll take any bigot, racist, or whatever vote if that means the better candidate wins in November, because that alternative is the bigot, racist, racist. Better to fluff the controversial voters and hopefully win than lose an election because of a speech. And if she doesn’t win, then it doesn’t matter what she said anyway.
If one candidate said they’d kill the jews, but the other said they’d just send them to camps (to appease that popular fascist voter), liberals would end up voting to send the jews to concentration camps.
That might be true if anything even remotely close to that happened, but that is a completely different situation that what this conversation is about.
One side says no trans rights, and one side didn’t bring it up in their speech, event though a couple of others did, which is far different from being anti trans.
One will actively aid in the genocide, the other may not. There’s two options, one is better than the other. You can piss and moan all you want about it, but that’s reality. Don’t vote out of protest if that gets your rocks off, but it won’t do any good for Palestine.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated
You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
If democrats didn’t utilize this electoral ‘strategy’, maybe we wouldn’t have been taking steps backwards on women’s and LGBTQ rights.
If democrats can’t run on protecting minorities, and they can’t pass popular legislation (after they’ve won because they didn’t run on protecting minorities) because of congressional posturing, then maybe their electoral strategy is broken.
Winning by not alienating new voters who came over from Trumps base??? You and the other person are acting like just because they didn’t fucking talk about YOUR issue RIGHT NOW they will NEVER support you.
New Trump voters go back to Trump: dems fault for alienating them (or worse, progressives fault for pushing dems to be progressive)
Progressive voters staying home or voting green: progressive voters fault for not being ethically flexible
This is why leftists acknowledge liberals as being adversarial, bud. Dems aren’t interested in progress, they’re interested in maintaining their centrist consensus.
Ilhan Omar, Mark Pocan, Ayanna Presley, Rashida Tlaib? Not progressive? Not interested in fighting for minorities?
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but your take smells a lot like “hello fellow teens, let’s go burn down some shit”, “oh look there’s a pallets of bricks here at this protest and it’s almossst dark time!”
Lmao you think Bernie Sanders, AOC or Ilhan Omar are representative of the democratic party? Sanders was quite famously fucked by the party (twice), and Ilhan Omar is currently getting fucked, too. AOC is only barely more friendly with the party, but not until after she walked back her open support for Palestinan liberation and did a livestream with a Zionist AIPAC rep to explain why Israel has a right to defend itself.
The democratic party relies on the support of capitalist and reactionary interests. It’s why they fund primary challenges to progressive congressmen and their extremist reactionary opponents. They’re happy to include progressives in their caucus as long as they maintain their ability to govern with a center-right lean.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.
That would be a morally correct political faux pas, that would result in Republicans scoring easy points just by saying “See! We told you so!”
It’s the kind of suggestion someone in a leftwing political bubble would make, forgetting that to actually be effective, you have to win votes from both sides.
There’s no room for tactical errors this election, even if they would make you feel morally superior. It’s not a game of moral signaling, it’s a game of politics. The point is not to be right, it’s to win the election.
I don’t know what you mean by this. Progressives just need people to vote. The higher the voting turnout percentage, the better progressive candidates do. Conservative voters are the last people to stop voting due to disenfranchisement, they are practically immune to it. There are not a lot of swing voters.
Yes, and the vast majority of Americans have no interest in voting for what they consider niche culture issues. Defeating fascists will protect everyone’s rights.
You’re not saying that they are disinterested, that this is an ineffective way to spend energy or something. You’re saying that it will actively drive moderate Americans to hate trans people. I think you need to look into your heart.
So, to be clear, your claim is that I didn’t say what I literally said?
Here, maybe an analogy will help. Suppose I run for office to fight corporate monopolies. How do I get people to vote for me?
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money at the grocery store by preventing price gouging.”
“My fellow Americans, a strong antitrust policy will save you money on Pokémon cards by preventing price gouging.”
Even though Pokémon cards will be cheaper under a good antitrust policy, that’s not a fact that will motivate average Americans to vote. They don’t hate Pokémon, you understand. They just have their own problems, living paycheck to paycheck, etc.
Hope that helps!
No, they’re saying that it will actively drive some moderate Americans to not vote because they see the trans question as being a far left issue. If they have more votes to lose than to win by talking about trans rights (which trans actually know are better protected by Democrats) then why would they talk about it when their goal is to be elected?
This is a reasonable response. But generally “energizing the base” is done closer to the election. We’ll see more preaching to the choir discourse around then.
I’m kind of hoping the silence on Gaza turns loud once the election is close enough that AIPAC money won’t fuck the election.
I honestly don’t give a shit how loud they are about it before the election, I just want to see them take action once Kamala is in office.
Right now I just want to see them win the election, because everything else I want is off-the-table otherwise. If being quiet on controversial issues right now helps, then they should do that.
Right, but turning vocal on it right before the election might get some more people to actually vote, and higher turnout means Dems win.
Like how Biden has been taking action on it while he’s been in office…?
There’s zero evidence Harris will do anything she hasn’t voiced support for once she’s in office, and she has no actual motivation to do so once the election is over.
“We just need to win” is literally just that.
And the only time when Biden has seemed to briefly change tact on Israel was when his polling for the upcoming election was suffering. All this philosophy about “don’t make a stink now, it’s only going to get Trump elected” is bullshit, because it very much also might make Democrats decide trans-rights/Palestine actually matter. Quietly storing it away for after the election will do absolutely nothing.
That’s the only reason centrists don’t want anyone making a fuss about it.
It’s the morally correct position. And running away from it will lose democrats votes they need.
They’re not gonna win republicans by going to the right. The democrats are going to lose if they try that shit. If they want to win they need to promise to bring back abortion rights, protect LGBTQ rights, and stop arming Israel. That would guarantee them a win. Especially if Kamala keeps up her economic promises she already made.
I hope Tim Walz can talk some sense into her.
Biden administration restores protections for gay and transgender Americans seeking health care
Abortion rights will take longer, because they need the Supreme Court for that.
Israel will not happen, they will likely continue to support traditional geopolitical allies who are clients of the military industrial complex.
…you would likely need to alter neoliberalism it’s self to do that one.
Any other vulnerable minorities you want to throw under the bus while you’re at it?
do you think winning an election is about the popular vote?
do you think the Democrats are more likely to support trans rights?
If you answered yes to both, then maybe don’t suggest importing wedge issues into something that’s about the popular vote?
Do you want to give Trump more voters? Because that’s what you’re angling for. That’s what the headline is suggesting to do.
You’re mistaking wanting the most minority supporting side of politics to win the election for not supporting minorities? How the fuck doesn’t that even make sense.
Kamala’s job is currently defensive, dodge dodge dodge, stay clean, watch Trump get dirty and sink. It’s simple.
As soon as she’s won, then it’s time to be very very very noisy (and violent) on progressive and socialist issues again. But right now that’s only going to act as a kind of sabotage.
Which is fine if you’re an accelerationist who sees value to strengthening American Fascism. But I just want to try to end the Republican party.
I answered no to both.
The only argument any centrist has when they move to the right like they all want to.
So you don’t believe they need the popular vote to win and you believe that the Republicans would be better at defending trans rights?
I don’t accept that defending trans SAFETY is a losing election issue.
Doesn’t matter whether you accept facts or not, they’re still facts rofl
Have you spent any time in right wing spaces, or listened to the new generation describing themselves as “classical liberals”. They’re swing voters and it’s pretty important to them.
Yes, let’s just do everything we can to abandon every last minority centrists consider expendable in order to peel off a total of zero votes from fascists.
They’re not going to vote for you, no matter how many vulnerable minorities you throw under the bus. You’ve had fucking decades to figure this out, and it looks like you’re just throwing people under the bus because you like the thumping sounds.
All powerful me who you can attack rather than try to convince. A microcosm for your general approach of yelling. Your goals and demands, kept vague at best.
I doubt you even know what you’re asking for.
There’s a timeline to installing trans rights, it requires adjustments to the Supreme Court.
But I’m aware that you’re not thinking that far ahead in a planned or tactical manner, and your plans are: be loud, make demands, be radical.
But you’ve not actually outlined much more than that, so there’s nothing to debate with you.
Good day, good luck with your imaginary bus, and me as the all powerful deity controlling who gets pushed under.
No idea what you’re on about unfortunately, but you seem very vocal about whatever it is.
[Edit: No, I get it, you want to create a polemic against Trump’s obvious lies, treating them as if they’re worth addressing rather than let him melt under the scrutiny of the general population https://i.redd.it/m2pzcfjk77md1.png… But that’s not necessary. Let’s not make his lies into a false balance situation. Just let him look foolish instead.]
It is when that’s considered woke and you’ve got a ton of your own electors that have been brainwashed into thinking woke bad
Well fuck, if it’s considered woke I guess there’s nothing we can do 🤷♂️
If your goal is to not let the Republicans win? Just look at what the Democrats at the various levels of government are actually doing even though they never make it a point to talk about it while they’re campaigning and understand that there’s a fucking good reason why they don’t.
Hell, you need to be pretty self centered to believe that trans people are the only repressed people that don’t get talked about but still benefit from having the Democrats in power vs the Republicans. They can’t cover every single group.
I believe that the popular vote isn’t sufficient to win, as it wasn’t when Clinton lost with the popular vote.
I believe Democrats won’t protect trans rights, either.
You’ve chosen to be dishonest as fuck about my positions.
She didn’t get the popular vote where it mattered, popular vote is still what is needed
So you think it’s just as likely they won’t protect trans right as it is likely the Republicans won’t? Because that was the question.
Looking at Democrat’s States vs Republican States it’s pretty clear you’re wrong about that second part.
Trump won without it.
I don’t trust either of them at all on this issue. I think they’re just itching to throw another vulnerable minority under the bus like they did with the undocumented immigrants you’re using Republican talking points about.
Republicans do bad thing
Democrats try but fail to completely stop it
“Why did Democrats do this bad thing??” - Ensign_Crab
Every time without fail, it’s a classic
Again, she didn’t get the popular vote WHERE IT MATTERED, first past the post still requires popular vote, just not at a national level.
I bet they don’t answer you.
I hope you had money riding on it.
Geez, you’re a bit crabby, aren’t you.
Don’t call me a trumper for not trusting your shit party not to be shit, then.
Maybe, just maybe, a system that makes doing the right thing a losing move, isn’t a system that we should allow to continue to exist.
Are you an accelerationist? What’s your point?
I think @BallsandBayonets@lemmings.world was referring to First Past The Post in favor of Proportional Representation
I support this
This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
Because to you, politics is just a game.
That’s a lot of words to just say that you don’t understand how politics works in the real world.
“Politics is when we capitulate to the most bigoted perspectives if they happen to be held by an important electoral demographic”
When you live in a 2 party system with FPtP voting, this is the unfortunate reality. The person that has the most support has the most power to intact change. Sometimes that means you have to crawl through shit to get there.
I’ll take any bigot, racist, or whatever vote if that means the better candidate wins in November, because that alternative is the bigot, racist, racist. Better to fluff the controversial voters and hopefully win than lose an election because of a speech. And if she doesn’t win, then it doesn’t matter what she said anyway.
As though you consider any capitulation to fascism unfortunate.
Removed by mod
Jesus christ.
If one candidate said they’d kill the jews, but the other said they’d just send them to camps (to appease that popular fascist voter), liberals would end up voting to send the jews to concentration camps.
This is how liberals end up siding with fascism
That might be true if anything even remotely close to that happened, but that is a completely different situation that what this conversation is about.
One side says no trans rights, and one side didn’t bring it up in their speech, event though a couple of others did, which is far different from being anti trans.
“Sure, participating in a genocide is bad, but the other candidate would participate more”
One will actively aid in the genocide, the other may not. There’s two options, one is better than the other. You can piss and moan all you want about it, but that’s reality. Don’t vote out of protest if that gets your rocks off, but it won’t do any good for Palestine.
I stopped reading after this because they obviously don’t understand what’s being said.
You fail at playing the game.
Bruh
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
If democrats didn’t utilize this electoral ‘strategy’, maybe we wouldn’t have been taking steps backwards on women’s and LGBTQ rights.
If democrats can’t run on protecting minorities, and they can’t pass popular legislation (after they’ve won because they didn’t run on protecting minorities) because of congressional posturing, then maybe their electoral strategy is broken.
What strategy dude
Winning by not alienating new voters who came over from Trumps base??? You and the other person are acting like just because they didn’t fucking talk about YOUR issue RIGHT NOW they will NEVER support you.
New Trump voters go back to Trump: dems fault for alienating them (or worse, progressives fault for pushing dems to be progressive)
Progressive voters staying home or voting green: progressive voters fault for not being ethically flexible
This is why leftists acknowledge liberals as being adversarial, bud. Dems aren’t interested in progress, they’re interested in maintaining their centrist consensus.
I couldn’t disagree with you more if I wanted to.
Bernie Sanders isn’t interested in progress?
AOC isn’t interested in progress?
Ilhan Omar, Mark Pocan, Ayanna Presley, Rashida Tlaib? Not progressive? Not interested in fighting for minorities?
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but your take smells a lot like “hello fellow teens, let’s go burn down some shit”, “oh look there’s a pallets of bricks here at this protest and it’s almossst dark time!”
Lmao you think Bernie Sanders, AOC or Ilhan Omar are representative of the democratic party? Sanders was quite famously fucked by the party (twice), and Ilhan Omar is currently getting fucked, too. AOC is only barely more friendly with the party, but not until after she walked back her open support for Palestinan liberation and did a livestream with a Zionist AIPAC rep to explain why Israel has a right to defend itself.
The democratic party relies on the support of capitalist and reactionary interests. It’s why they fund primary challenges to progressive congressmen and their extremist reactionary opponents. They’re happy to include progressives in their caucus as long as they maintain their ability to govern with a center-right lean.
I’m just not going to dismiss the entire fucking democratic party under a shallow judgement of specific actions taken by specific people
Pretty simple, and should be a familiar sentiment you should hold if you’re actually progressive, ironically.
Progressives aren’t liberals.
They’re to the left of liberals.
Stop gaslighting.
It’s a good thing we’re talking about democrats and not liberals then huh bud.
Now who’s gaslighting who
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
Figured as much. Very obvious you’re not interested in having civil discourse with anyone.
Enjoy your tantrum and lack of individual support
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.