In 1987, the Israeli human rights attorney Felicia Langer was paying a visit to the Neve Tirza women’s prison when a client named Siham shared some disturbing news: the prisoners held there had recently been sprayed with a chemical agent that left them writhing on the floor. Langer grabbed a tissue that had been exposed to the substance – a piece of evidence, perhaps, in a future legal case. Then, on impulse, she lifted it to her face and inhaled deeply. Her hope, she wrote later, was that doing so might enable a doctor to identify the toxin.
This anecdote appears in Anti-Zionism: A Jewish History*,* by Benjamin Moser. In it, the Pulitzer prize-winning author profiles a dozen Jews who actively opposed Zionism, before and after the establishment of Israel – from Aaron Samuel Tamares, a Polish rabbi who began inveighing against Jewish nationalism in the late 19th century; to British diplomat Edwin Montagu, who sought to derail the 1917 Balfour declaration promising a Jewish state in Palestine; to Israeli “new historian” Avi Shlaim – figures he sees as part of “a hidden tradition … of people who, though long dismissed and despised, were ultimately proven right”. Along the way, he seeks to dismantle the Zionist “fairytale,” as he puts it, piece by piece.
I mean, there were millions of antizionist Jews that were murdered in Europe.
Unfortunately, the Holocaust meant that the Jewish survivors were mostly Zionist, because their politics lead to their continued blood line.
It took a few generations for their children to learn how fucked up Zionism was, and now most younger Jews are antizionist.
Anyone that equates Judaism with Israel is spreading Netenyahu’s propaganda for him, whether they understand what they’re doing or not.
No group of people is a monolith, acting like they are is just bigotry and fighting along the line the bigots drew.
Because when it’s bigots vs everybody else, the bigots always lose.
While netanyahu is a would-be autocrat, so we can talk about “netanyahu’s propaganda” in that sense, there’s a false narrative that tries to put all the blame for genocide on netanyahu.
The fact is that genocide enjoys broad support from a wide majority of israelis, who understand perfectly well what they are doing. Netanyahu has no serious anti-genocide opponents, because they have no realistic base of support.
I think centering netanyahu rather than israel in posts about the genocide risks supporting this false narrative that this is a netanyahu problem, rather than an israel problem.
Tell that to the zionists they are the one who try to frame it like that
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You don’t even have the slightest twinge of a feeling what you just did is the same the pro-Netenyah crowd is doing…
Do you?
Or when Trump says one Black person is a criminal so it’s fine to judge all of them like that?
Really just any fucking bigot, take what they say about groups of people, take a step back and reread your comment…
Did it click yet?
I mean its a religion and it is easy to in doctrine people with religion. Look at Americas “Christianity”.
before I say what I’m about to say I want to be clear I don’t think Judaism = Zionism and I agree that Netanyahu is absolutely pushing that narrative to support his goals.
That said I think your comparison to race here is quite unfair. Bigotry surrounding race, sex, orientation etc is fundamentally different than religion. It needs to be acknowledged that profiling behaviors based on race, sex, orientation etc is wrong in large part because those things have very little to do with people’s behavior or beliefs outside their narrow domain. So the only broad stroke statements to make about them are bigoted and hateful.
On the other hand religion shapes someone’s entire worldview and how they act. I think it’s a bit of a problem that somehow we’ve convinced ourselves which cult you joined deserves as much respect how you were born. It doesn’t. And while not everyone who’s a member of the cult believes all its tenets it’s entirely fair to acknowledge that the central tenets of these cults are deeply problematic in themselves.
So yeah lots of people who call themselves Jewish are not Zionist but that requires not accepting key parts of the central texts. So I guess what I’m saying is for Non-Zionist Jewish people I think the burden of proof is kinda on them to clarify. When you identify yourself as a member of a cult I’m gonna assume you follow its teachings unless you tell me otherwise. Similarly we can’t pretend the existence of the cult is entirely independent of the existence of fundamentalists that take its texts to the most literal and problematic extreme.
Holy war and its war crimes have plagued humanity for literally its entire history and I think we need to be honest about the fact that while individual people who are members of these cults may not be problematic the continued acceptance of these widespread cults in the modern era totally is.
I think a lot of people don’t realize that not every Jewish person is Judaist and not every Judaist is Jewish. There’s this weird idea that all members of the race believe the same thing, which is demonstrably false, yet people continue to conflate the race and the religion.
Sure but when I hear Jewish I think of the religion. Race never even crosses my mind. And I would assume a lot of people are like that.
I recognize that English is spoken all over the world and there are many regional differences but to me (and I think most Americans) Jewish = practices Judaism. People who are ethnically Jewish will say “ethnically Jewish” or something more specific like ashkenazi etc. Your comment seems to imply to you “Jewish” means the race not the religion so let me clarify I was referring to the religion exclusively throughout.
I didn’t compare any races. The Abrahamic faiths are of many (probably all) races. So, you saying that my comparison is to race is untrue, and in fact insulting.
We do agree that these faiths are a problem. I suggest that we at least charge them taxes like any other organization, since they are all unbelievably wealthy already. I think they’ll be fine without our help.
Oh dear the lack of reading comprehension has struck again. I was defending you dude. I was replying to the other guy who compared your take to saying all black people do crime cuz one did crime
No group of people is a monolith
Take it about nations then. Because when I said “no group of people” in this context what I meant was citizens of a country, but again, it’s any group.
Take a group of boomers who believe the Chevy Corvette is the best vehicle ever, within that group there will be schisms and disagreements.
I’ll say it one more time:
No group of people is a monolith
Sure but when a country has run one way for decades. Has citizens going and taking over others lands. Salting the soil and all that. I’m sorry but doesn’t just fall on the government. And let’s just say that most people don’t support this the fact that they do nothing means they do.
Eh, it’s different when the Corvette isn’t just the one we know, but “Chevy Corvette, the car that makes you better than everyone so it’s your eternal imperative to kill them or rule them!™”
I can’t go to that gathering and try to find the people who “love the car for its engineering, but don’t support the advertised slogans and belief that they cut your dick up and bind you to as a baby”, it’s just too dangerous.
Now, singling out Judaism for this “slogan” is certainly asinine. It’s all three abrahamic religions. But people who can ignore the rapey molestery murdery commands of any of those books, and pretend like their religion is good, are all a problem.
Though they are not a monolith, they all share that trait; they believe in those commands or they are ok with pushing the religion that contains them
Indeed. But, the Holy Books say what they say, and they are a monolith, and blood is being spilt over it right now as we speak.
They absolutely are not…
There’s a shit ton of flavors of every religion.
Christians have Catholics and Protestants.
Judaism has Orthodox and liberal.
Islam has Sunnie and Shiat.
And if you look at any of those groups, they have internal divisions. And even at the smallest group, not everyone agrees.
Emo Philips had a bit on this over 50 years ago, maybe he can explain it better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78
No group is a monolith
I agree, I don’t think that contradicts anything I just said.
Then I have no idea why you want on a giant rant about religion if you knew while talking generally, I was talking about citizenship
Because you then compared the guy saying religions with problematic teachings are problematic to a racists. A take you notably did not even discuss in the comment I said I had no disagreement with.
I’m not judging them all like that, even if you claim so, it will never, ever be true.
Zero bigotry, it’s their ancient law. Do you understand? Their Abrahamic Holy Books say that, not me. No debate.
And many of them believe it. It’s not a monolith, it’s a minority, but I think a lot more people are fundamentalist supporters than most think.
You can read Tanakh and Koran at your leisure and see that what I say is the truth. You can listen to a rabbi or imam, they release their own videos on Youtube. My claims aren’t exaggerated in any way, shape, or form.
Don’t you have the slightest twinge of a feeling that you’re misinformed and in way over your head? Of course not.
I’ve read all of these Holy Books, and I recommend that you become informed on the subject with an annotated Tanakh/Bible/Koran, they all share the same fundamentalist tree, and all of them have their own fundamentalist believers. Nothing bigoted whatsoever, friend.
You’ll realize it some day, maybe. Probably not.
Their Abrahamic Holy Books say that, not me. No debate
So…
Do you think every Christian 100% follows what the Bible tells them to?
Cuz buddy, have I got news for you…
Actually the expansionist cults are fine cuz most members don’t adhere to all their teachings is not the own you seem to think it is
cuz most members don’t adhere to all their teachings is not the own you seem to think it is
…
It’s the same for the other religions, you just aren’t familiar with them so you lump them in one large group
At this point I don’t even care why this is hard for you to get
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say here? I’m well aware this is the same for all religions. It won’t surprise you to believe I oppose all religions. If it helps I will even go so far as to amend that to say all religions I’ve taken the time to be knowledgeable about because obviously I’m human and don’t know everything.
The Jewish bund was created in the same year as the political zionism
I know more anti-Zionist Jews than Zionist Jews. And some of them are even Israelis.
My favorite Israelis are the ones fighting for a 0 State solution
Molly Crabapple’s book Here Where We Live Is Our Country talks about the Jewish Bund, an anti-Zionist Jewish organization that formed in the late 1800s as a self defense group to combat pogroms and other forms of antisemitic violence.
As The Guardian notes, the New Yorker review (itself plainly sympathetic and anti-Zionist) pretty badly skewers the factual accuracy of the book’s history and abuse of sources.
I thought this example was particularly egregious:
It’s when Moser touches on the Nazis’ victims that his approach to the facts truly emerges as slovenly to the point of reckless. “There was abundant proof of the way the Zionist press laundered the stories of atrocities emerging from Europe,” Moser writes. “ ‘Jewish culture flourishing in the Warsaw Ghetto with 24 bookstores and libraries,’ Ben-Gurion’s newspaper, Davar, reported on October 16, 1942.” Moser is correct that an article published in Davar on that date included these words. But it was the type of story—one that you might hope to read about Gaza today—that aimed to show the resilience of people living under hellish circumstances. “The name ‘prison’ is too soft to suggest what this is,” the author wrote in the same piece. “The Warsaw Ghetto is more like an animal enclosure that is right by the slaughterhouse in which you hold the cows until they are ready to be killed. But they don’t torture the cows the way they torture Jews in the ghetto.” The article ends as follows: “Their spirit is still with them in the face of the destruction that the enemy is perpetrating. This shows that there is still a will to live. The enemy cannot hurt their soul.” This, according to Moser, was “laundering” Nazi atrocities.
The man literally took an article written by Jews trying to inspire some small sliver of hope among fellow Jews being subjected to genocide and turned it into “Well clearly they thought everything was hunky-dory.”
You should see the conditions of dairy cows or chickens or pigs. These days, factory farms absolutely torture animals before they’re slaughtered.
Many Holocaust survivors became vegetarian after they left the camps, as they said that they realized how we treat animals is very similar to how they were treated by the Nazis in the camps.
I moderate !vegan@lemmy.world, for some context. Dominion (2018) was the documentary that convinced me to go vegan.
